Over at
ArenaFan.com, the best 2nd party AFL website available, has made available the transcript of a conversation that
ArenaFan.com contributors Tim Capper and Adam Markowitz had with Steve Watson, the Vice President of the newly formed Arena Football League Players' Union (AFLPU), about the potential of a strike in 2012.
I've listed the transcript below, but make sure to check out
ArenaFan.com for your Arena Football needs! It's great exclusives such as this that make
ArenaFan.com a truly wonderful website along with it's fantastic focus on both the present and historical aspects of the AFL.
It's a great read so go on and enjoy!
Tim Capper: Everyone has seen it on the net, and they don’t really know what to think about it, the possible player's strike, but we wanted to bring in somebody specifically from the players' point of view to be able to answer some of these questions that you may have and to clear anything up. We are going to bring in Steve Watson, a former Arena League player. He has played with San Jose, Tulsa, and Dallas. And as we said, welcome to the show.
Steve Watson:Thanks for having me.
TC: We've seen some stuff from across the internet, Steve, where it looks like there have been rumors that there may be a player's strike, and it looks like there have been issues. This is the information that we do know, and obviously if you can, please correct me. We know that there is a 21-man roster per week and players are getting paid $400 per game plus a $50 [win] bonus, unless you're the quarterback where you are getting paid $1,275 per game.
SW: The $1,275 is in addition to the $400.
TC: Oh, interesting.
SW: That is a bonus for starting quarterbacks.
TC: Interesting, okay. When it comes to the players themselves, have you guys voted or even talked about voting to call a strike? Is that necessary? If this were to occur, would it just be a unilateral, 'We are going to strike,' or are you trying to talk with the league and try to settle things before this actually may happen?
SW: Well absolutely. A work stoppage in any negotiations is obviously a last, last resort. To this point, what we have done is really just poll players and hold a vote to get the support to have that option if that makes sense. Players have overwhelmingly declared that they are not going to take that option off of the table and that is a viable and very possible option should we not be able to get a fair deal done.
Adam Markowitz: Steve, is there a concern, about 72 hours away from the start of the season, is there a growing concern or some sort of a deadline that is in place here before we know whether the season is getting started on time?
SW: I really have to answer that by saying ideally, you guys should have never known that this happened. We really should have took a page from the MLB and got a deal done without fans ever having known anything. We do internally have a deadline for something to get done. However, if that deadline crosses, the league will still have an opportunity to present a fair proposal without any games being missed.
AM: Even if this ends up being a situation where it ends up being 5:00, 6:00 on Friday night, would the players still be open at that point to starting the season on time, or would that be more or less too late to get anything started at least on Friday night? Perhaps the season could still get started this coming weekend?
SW: I have to say the league has had our proposal and has known about this for the last two years. They've got a full-time legal counsel on hand. They have every opportunity. They have our proposal. They kind of know where we stand. They know where that line has been drawn. They have every opportunity to go ahead and get a deal done. What they have presented us at this point is really laughable. They do have every opportunity to get a deal done. Should it comes to the point, and again, that is the very, very last of any of our wishes and desires, but should it come to a point where a strike does become necessary, the league would still have an option to come to the table and make us an offer that we feel is fair. They know where we feel is fair. They have a range that we are willing to accept. Keep in mind that we aren't asking for the sun and the stars. We're definitely not doing that. The ball is really in their court.
TC: You said that you have been negotiating for is it for two years, or is that ever since you gave them your contract demands? How long have you actually been officially negotiating with the league? How long have you guys been sitting down?
SW: Sitting down? Since June of last year. That's when we actually became official through the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Board. That's when we actually became the official bargaining agent of the Arena Football League players. At that point, the league was forced by law to negotiate in good faith with us. To this point, I am of the opinion that they have not done that. They have not submitted their first proposal until, I believe it was last Friday was when we got that first proposal. Mind you, we sent them several proposals throughout this time since last June to respond. They have said "No, we don't like that." They have never countered a proposal. Their last counterproposal, it wasn't a proposal. It was an interim standard player contract, basically asking us not to strike and giving us very, very modest gains to not strike. It wasn't enough for us to feel it was fair.
AM: Obviously the NFL strike, lockout, whatever you want to call it was a significantly different situation. For the laymen like me and like basically I'm sure everybody else listening, when NFL players decided that they needed to decertify, it seems almost as though the AFL Players Union has kind of had to go the opposite route from the decertification. And along with that, with the NFL players, we kept hearing all about revenue sharing and profit sharing, and we kept hearing how they were going to split this $200 billion industry, or whatever it is. That being said, are the players looking for a percentage of the revenue, or are they just looking for some set of set number?
SW: Without getting too much into specifics, right now there is a set range as far as salary, but there are also even more non-monetary issues that are of great concern to the players right now. We're looking for a short term deal, so basically we can come back and table it. So we're not looking for a 10-year CBA. It would make no sense with the league in this stage of its infancy to go and drag out a long term CBA. We're looking for something short term so basically to look and see what the numbers are here in two or three years and then go from there. Right now, the major concern is not moving forward with this standard player contract. It is completely unfair and doesn't address any of the concerns of our players.
AM: Are the players just looking to more or less put a Band-Aid on this for the 2012 season and go forward, or is there actually something that the players are looking forward to at least make sure that everything is okay from a labor standpoint for at least a couple of years?
SW: Definitely for a couple of years. We are looking for a short term CBA. I'd say something two or three years, max. Anything over that honestly would be in the league's advantage. With plans to grow with the fans, there is really no way to do a projection beyond there. So there are minimum standards that we feel are acceptable for this period of time, and we will deal with the issues going forward.
AM: Does the league seem to be on the same wavelength with the timeline, or do we have any idea with that?
SW: To be honest with you, we wouldn't know. The league has been very uncooperative at this point. They have not really engaged us how they are required by law to do. Right now, I wouldn't be able to speak for the league. Like I said, their only proposal response with an actual proposal was what we received at the end of last week, which was definitely sticking a Band-Aid on an open wound. It didn't settle anything.
AM: Do you think that there is the possibility that the players end up in a situation for whatever period of time? But if the league still goes on, do the players seem to have some sort of plan where if some sort of deal gets struck say, three or four weeks into the season, to come back and perhaps play an odd type of a season where teams may have had just replacement players for a period of time.
SW: Well, at this point, we really haven't taken any options off of the table. We do have some contingency plans should it get to that point. I think what you've got to keep in mind is right now, these guys have kind of went through camp. They've went through, they've learned the playbook. The league, the threats that they've made over just to push the guys. Realistically, having to replace 408 guys in two days, it can't be. You've got to get guys in from their respective cities. You've got to train them. You've got to teach them the playbook. I don't care how hard you try. These guys went through camp for a reason. These are the best players there are available right now. Our fans, are they going to settle for that subpar of a product? I hear a lot of this "These guys, we can replace these guys anywhere." I've been to an IFL game, and I'll tell you what, it's not the same. That quality product is not the same. Yeah, this isn't the NFL, but we do have our Tom Bradys, and we do have our Peyton Mannings. I want to see the fan that will come down here and sit in my place and tell me that Aaron Garcia isn't the Peyton Manning of the Arena Football League. I want to see the fan who comes and tells me that Tim McGill isn't whoever it is that you want to say out there. We do have stars in this league, and that is what makes us great. We are the best indoor football players there are.
AM: Could the argument be made then, that the from 2008, the NBC days, and all of that... Could the argument be made that the talent level that was in the league in 2008 to the quote "new AFL" that started in 2010… Could the argument be made that the talent level has already dropped like that and that there may be some unrealistic expectations?
SW: Well, you know, playing in both leagues, I tell you, there is definitely a difference in talent. Obviously, you're going to attract some different guys when you're able to pay them a hundred grand versus paying them $7,800 for the season. But keep in mind, we're not trying to go back to those salaries. The talent level in this league is still very high. No matter what level of football you go to at the college level, whether it's NAIA through Division I, every team's got a great running back, every team's got great receivers, every team's got great DBs. Skill positions, you can find talent. There's talent there. From my perspective, playing in both leagues, the biggest drop off in talent, and it wasn't huge, it would have to be on the line. Quarterback play is still pretty damn good. The product on the field is still very, very good. You've still got a lot of quality guys out there.
TC: You were mentioning in specific how the league said, you called it their threat that they would just be able to replace you. Do you think this is basically just a way the league is saying that "We are going to lock you out?" Has that word ever been thrown around officially, or how are you guys understanding what the league is telling you? Or is this just something that they're trying and using as an idle threat.
SW: Every situation is kind of different because it is a violation of NLRB laws to actually make threats. Yet those have been done, which is why we have the complaints filed with NLRB right now. They're not really allowed to engage our players in conversations about that. They can say what their rights are as an employer. By law, they're not allowed to make the, "If you do this then you're never going to play with us again." Yet those kind of threats have been made, and those complaints have been noted and filed as well.
TC: Now, is the AFLPU associated with any other union in the US? Or is it just you standing on your own two feet, so to speak?
SW: We have received a ton of support. We have not aligned with anyone. On conference calls, we have had several talks with several unions, talks with the NFLPA, talks with the CFLPA, talked to the Steel Workers Union. I've talked with, oh my goodness, just a tremendous amount of unions. Ivan Soto, who is one of our executives has just done a tremendous job of contacting other unions, other companies, helping get us some sponsorships and some memberships, getting players and discounts on things like airfare, rental cars, any things like that. It's really taking off, and I'm very, very proud of the progress that has been made. We definitely have been in contact with other unions and we are trying to get other support.
TC: When you guys are sitting at the tables together, is there a go between, so to speak? Do you have a mediator with you trying to bring the two sides together? Or are you finding that you are on your own at the moment? Is anybody there at all? SW: As far as a negotiator?
TC: Yeah, as far as a negotiator to try to bring you guys together. Or is it just you versus the league so to speak?
SW: No. Kind of the way the process works is once we are recognized by the NLRB, which is what happened last June, both sides initially are required to work together and negotiate in good faith. And good faith means both are supposed to put together realistic proposals, come together, and really try to work to get a deal done. If that doesn't happen, if so much time passes and the NLRB deems that no progress is being made, then at that point, they can assign an arbitrator, they can assign it to a judge to make an opinion… they really hold the power if we can't get a deal done. We're confident that we are putting out fair proposals. The ball is really in the league's court. Like I said, we began submitting proposals last June. It may have been the beginning of July. However, we received our first response as far as a counterproposal just last week. There have been face-to-face meetings between our executive president Mr. [James] Baron and [AFL Commissioner] Mr. [Jerry] Kurz. No progress has been made. And keep it mind, not even on the non-monetary issues. There are a whole host of issues outside of just a paycheck that are of great concern, things that basically wouldn't cost the league a thing to do. Yet, they have still been pretty uncooperative. And those are things that we're not willing to budge on.
TC: So it sounds like you guys are very frustrated, eh Steve?
SW: You know, it just gets to a point where it's like, how much more fair can you get? Ivan came out and said that he has guarantee the league he will not take them a proposal that will cause them to get less than a double digit return on their investment. I don't know how more fair you get than that? If I'm telling you that you are definitely going to make money. We're not going to ask for a proposal that you are not making money. I mean, I don't know how you get more fair than that.
AM: Obviously, the players don't want to lose the season, but are the players prepared for a potentially lengthy situation where there is a work stoppage?
SW: The difference between the AFL and the NFL or NBA is those players have made millions. Most of guys are going to be alright if they miss a game or two as long as they manage their money well. But if you tell a guy that is making $7,000 a season that he's got to go back home and live with mom, dad, girlfriend, you know. He's got a home back somewhere else. You're telling him you're going to take $7,000 away from him. Then what are you really taking away? What do guys really have to lose? There are several realities of the AFL. One is that less than 5% of our membership gets a job in the NFL. That's a reality. So what are guys really, really losing?
AM: If there was one thing that you could get across to the fans who… these are the same fans for the most part… I mean, not all of them, but for the most part that were in the league in '07 and '08 and they were crushed in 2009... Obviously, we have seen the attendance figures drop across the league. Is there a message that you would like to give to the fans, I don't want to say in the event that there is a stoppage, but if nothing else, in the event that we are talking about this and that the threat is there again to kind of make sure the players get the right message across to the fans.
SW: What I have to say is that it definitely shouldn't have come to this point. Keep in mind, we've sent several proposals over the past couple months, and the league is the one who decided to wait to the last hours to actually come back with another proposal. This could have been hashed out in November. The main point is that the players are here for the fans. We want to play football just like you guys want to watch football. It is definitely going to kill guys. It kills me every day that I'm not in camp right now. But at the end of the day, guys have got to do what's best for not only themselves, but for their families, their wellbeing, and their futures, and I hope that the fans can understand that.
AM: You mentioned that you were wishing you were in camp. Are there players that have avoided signing contracts with teams and with the league, knowing that this is the case, and could we see a lot more players coming back into the league once this is settled?
SW: I think that there has been a tremendous amount of support, from not only the current members, but from former players, from players who are considering playing in the league. But when you think of it, you want to tell a guy that he's got to leave his family and move across the country? You're going to pay him $400 a week. You're going to provide some meals, not all meals. If you live in an apartment, you've also got to pay your utilities and things. But I'm going to give you $400 a week. I think that that conversation changes if the guy is making a livable wage. I think the amount of players you're able to attract is going to substantial increase. There are tons of players, you know like myself, you would like to play. But is it worth it? Can you really see yourself leaving a job you already have? Or can you see yourself trying to rework a schedule to work out there right now? That's just kind of the reality that you're in. This definitely opens up a pool of players you have access to if you better the working conditions.
TC: And one last question, Steve. First of all, we want to thank you for joining us. It has actually been our pleasure to have you with us. If you were to, for all of those fans who have been looking at all of the information, obviously all this stuff going back and forth, you know the rumors, what they think is true, what they may not know is true… If you have one message to the fans who may be on the fence or may not know specifically what to think, what would you, as the AFLPU spokesperson on this interview say to them?
SW: I want them to know to trust in us as a union. Trust that we are going to separate ourselves and put ourselves in a position where a strike is the only option. We want to play, and a work stoppage is definitely a last resort. We have given the league several outs to work with, and they could still choose one of those. Ideally, we'll be sitting here next week talking about the winners over the weekend. The players want to play. They absolutely want to. They didn't go to camp and bust their tails just to sit home this weekend and do nothing. They want to play, but they want to play under fair terms.
TC: Fantastic, Steve. Thanks again.
SW: Thank you guys./p>
